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krause

[Opinion Poll] Domination End Conditions

  

35 members have voted

  1. 1. Should seeder missions have reasonable end conditions?

    • Yes
      16
    • No
      16
    • Other (reply below)
      3


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I am posting this poll to determine the popular opinion on whether or not Domination and other seeder missions should have end conditions. Currently the mission SOPs require all missions to have a reasonable end condition, but seeders are exempted from this rule. If you support seeder missions requiring a reasonable end condition, vote yes, if you do not support them having reasonable end conditions, vote no.

 

I will reference the result of the vote in this thread and consider it for writing a new SOP or enforcing the pre-existing SOPs in a different way.

 

A reasonable end condition implies but is not limited to:

1. Either a reasonable time limit - no longer than 2 hours. OR

2. Objective completion OR

3. Casualty cap

 

The above could be at the discretion of the mission maker.

 

Non-regulars are free to respond and I will tally their votes at the end - but you cannot technically vote through the forum software.

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My personal opinion:

 

Seeders should at least have a reasonable time limit, and would preferably have an objective completion end trigger. This would allow the players on the server to take pause and consider selecting a new mission, although they would not be limited from selecting a seeder again. The lack of pause, and of a coherent plan by the admin is often the reason by seeder means drag on without end.

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No, you'll lose your progress when seeding by having to restart therefor griefing the players attempting the seed the server.

We have already been through this - 3 times.

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Yes. You don't really have much progress with Domination, if it's seeded the server then most people'll go on to play normal missions.

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Yes for some sort of time limit. On ANYTHING.

 

Object completion is tricky and may work (or at least not kill a seeder too soon).

Casualty cap will never work for a seeder.

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Personally I believe this poll is not needed. Domi DOES have an end condition. Its in the parameters set up by the admin when first started. You just have to attack and take the specified amount of main AOs. Now its just a matter of the admin not setting it for a rediculous amount of AOs and the CO actually attacking the AOs every so often and not only attacking side missions. So according to the SOPs, Domi DOES have a reasonable end condition according to the 2nd point. Granted the missions can run long if there is not proper direction from the CO, but as I have stated, it CAN be won.

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My personal opinion:Seeders should at least have a reasonable time limit, and would preferably have an objective completion end trigger. This would allow the players on the server to take pause and consider selecting a new mission, although they would not be limited from selecting a seeder again. The lack of pause, and of a coherent plan by the admin is often the reason by seeder means drag on without end.

Everything in this post sounds reasonable. Especially the last two sentences IMO are good compromise for the opposing views.

 

 

No, you'll lose your progress when seeding by having to restart therefor griefing the players attempting the seed the server.We have already been through this - 3 times.

Can you elaborate on what specifically you understand under progress?

Can you explain the reasons why would a player who seeds the server be griefed by a new mission?

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Personally I believe this poll is not needed. Domi DOES have an end condition. Its in the parameters set up by the admin when first started. You just have to attack and take the specified amount of main AOs. Now its just a matter of the admin not setting it for a rediculous amount of AOs and the CO actually attacking the AOs every so often and not only attacking side missions. So according to the SOPs, Domi DOES have a reasonable end condition according to the 2nd point. Granted the missions can run long if there is not proper direction from the CO, but as I have stated, it CAN be won.

 

But Domi usually not started by a GM, or even a Regular, so they might not even know that the parameter exists.

 

Also alot of people find attacking the side missions more rewarding.

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Then instead of gimping domi the way you suggest, why not make the attacking the main AO parameter lower as a default. so that way someone who doesn't know about the parameter wont end up defaulting it to 9 AOs. If it defaults to 1 or 2 AOs, then someone who knows can set up the parameter to give a longer playtime if needed.

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Can you elaborate on what specifically you understand under progress?

Can you explain the reasons why would a player who seeds the server be griefed by a new mission?

 

Vehicles obtained via rewards[Domi], areas cleared for easier transportation[insurgency specific].

Why would they be griefed?because when you start playing with 3 guys and after 2 hours you have 7 guys its still not enough for a proper mission specially when no one wants to lead a proper mission, we used to call it the "Domi timer" because what would happen is 15 guys playing Domi, one person wants a proper mission - admin agrees and the next 10 minutes are spent playing the lobby simulator with people raging and quitting.

 

But Domi usually started by a GM, or even a Regular, so they might not even know that the parameter exists.

 

Also alot of people find attacking the side missions more rewarding.

 

*Fansadox's voice: No no no.*

 

Domi is very rarely ever started by GMs or Regulars, out of the community these 2 groups are probably the best informed of the situation.

Attacking the side mission is a player choice because its easier then the main missions, it is still a issue with the players and not the mission, technically it has a end.

 

 

What this is going to achieve is restarting the often leaderless matches of Domination that go on for 6 hours when the Americans are sleeping.

Herbiie and Rambo are not going to be there every day to lead the games, this is just going to make it worst.

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Domi is very rarely ever started by GMs or Regulars, out of the community these 2 groups are probably the best informed of the situation.

Attacking the side mission is a player choice because its easier then the main missions, it is still a issue with the players and not the mission, technically it has a end.

 

That's a typo, I meant to say not ;)

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No, capping a seeder at 2 hours will make it not work as a seeder. The reason they work is they can be played as much as possible and you don't need to reslot and re choose the missions. Also a time limit defeats the purpose of Domi.

 

It's end condition is to complete the 6 objectives which can be done in under 2 hours but the player choice to do what he wants is what makes Domi, Domi and a good seeder.

 

Making seeder missions 2 hours means you might as well remove them as they will serve no purpose and no one will want to play a sandbox mission which erases all progress after 2 hours.

 

Also it won't solve the original problem to why Krause posted this, people on the server will repeatedly choose Domi until the same time when more people come online so Herbiie will still have to go to bed and not get to play co-ops.

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And just to add, it won't make Domi more tactical (which is herbiies main reason) or less tactical as that is 100% up to the people joining and leading.

 

All in all this change would be pointless and do more harm to the server in the early hours then good.

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I get the distinct feeling that most of you have never actually admined a domi game. Ham already set 2 main objs as default end position. I could swear theres a number of side missions too, but I can't remember.

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What this is going to achieve is restarting the often leaderless matches of Domination that go on for 6 hours when the Americans are sleeping.

Herbiie and Rambo are not going to be there every day to lead the games, this is just going to make it worst.

First of all I am not interested in the naming calling arguments that some like to do here. Lets look at the facts.

1. If you look at the record of history Domination 9/10 is exactly what you are saying: a leaderless match. It produces no leaders - and leaders/competent leaders are something this community needs and the lack of those is so evident in TvT/Coop events.

2. Noone is trying to ban domi, the only thing that the topic should be about it how to make things better. I totally agree there should be a place where you can just get on the server,shoot a couple, maybe use a cool vehicle or two. As far as domi vehicles: In my own experience the only thing even remotely interesting for players are the planes, if you can give me examples of any other vehicles that players look for please let me know.

 

Why would they be griefed?because when you start playing with 3 guys and after 2 hours you have 7 guys its still not enough for a proper mission specially when no one wants to lead a proper mission.

I agree with you. I have been playing a lot these days and we lack 5 - 10 - 15 man missions, however I think you'll agree that noone wants to lead in Domi, because noone has to.

 

Bottom line

 

I think this topic shouldn't be about me, ZZEZ or any of the friends (is that the same guy?

*Fansadox's voice: No no no.*

 

but it should be foremost for those who are affected the most by this to voice their opinion in an environment clean of trolling. Some of those players are the players that get on at Euro time and play. The future of this thread will show if the discussion will go in the direction to attract the majority of voices (and a more varied opinions), or whether it will stay a a poll decided by the loud few (and strongly bipolar).

 

With that I abstaining from further posting.

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This thread is not about making things "better" at all. Putting a 2 hour cap on Domi is not going to make anything better and you might as well ban Domi as it will be pointless. Your argument doesn't make sense, Domi has end conditions but you want to put a timer on it to make things better? It doesn't make sense.

 

Furthermore, you say Domi produces no leader. Neither you or Herbiie lead very much. If you take the time you have on the server when Domi is on and lead, you will improve yourselves and when you get to play later, you can lead. I have also seen many people squad lead on Domi before SLing in a real game because of its slightly more relaxed environment. I myself learned all my radio etiquette and squad leading from going onto Domi and leading squads of 5 or 6, which I then brought to Co-Ops and TvTs and improved it.

 

Domi is tactical when you make it that. Finally, it was made personal when Herbiie posted his original post, this change does not help, fix or improve anything. If you think putting a 2 hour cap on Domi will suddenly make people go...holy shit, lets play tactically then you need to look again. I have said it countless times, Domi is what you make it, don't sit there and give out that Domi isn't tactical when you don't try to.

 

Once again, Domi has a win condition, which an be completed under 2 hours. There is no need for any other restriction.

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First of all I am not interested in the naming calling arguments that some like to do here. Lets look at the facts.

1. If you look at the record of history Domination 9/10 is exactly what you are saying: a leaderless match. It produces no leaders - and leaders/competent leaders are something this community needs and the lack of those is so evident in TvT/Coop events.

2. Noone is trying to ban domi, the only thing that the topic should be about it how to make things better. I totally agree there should be a place where you can just get on the server,shoot a couple, maybe use a cool vehicle or two. As far as domi vehicles: In my own experience the only thing even remotely interesting for players are the planes, if you can give me examples of any other vehicles that players look for please let me know.

 

1)Domination produces leaders far more then other missions because it gives players the opportunity to experiment and attempt leading without the responsibility of fucking up which is very critical for newbies unless you think newbies leading in +30 missions is a good thing?we have all seen in the past people ripping newbies apart after they failed leading a complex mission and we all know how helpful it is to the growth of leaders here - being publicly berated in a video game is about productive as eating donkey feces for fun.

 

2)How is this going to make Domination better?I have yet to see how it improves anything beside griefing players.

There are many vehicles that are obtainable via side missions: M60 tanks, artillery pieces, Ham could probably elaborate if he wants but given that his editing of the mission has been such a source of constant bashing I can see how his motivation is gone.

 

 

 

 

I agree with you. I have been playing a lot these days and we lack 5 - 10 - 15 man missions, however I think you'll agree that noone wants to lead in Domi, because noone has to.

 

Bottom line

 

I think this topic shouldn't be about me, ZZEZ or any of the friends (is that the same guy?

 

 

but it should be foremost for those who are affected the most by this to voice their opinion in an environment clean of trolling. Some of those players are the players that get on at Euro time and play. The future of this thread will show if the discussion will go in the direction to attract the majority of voices, or whether it will stay a a poll decided by the loud few.

 

With that I abstaining from further posting.

 

Domination requires less leadership so its easier to get a game going, people that lead do it out of desire instead of requirement, if Domination required the same leadership as Operation Boxer does then you will never see the server seeded.

You went from asking for no personal attacks to attacking Fansadox for not playing, me quoting Fansadox saying "No no no" is hardly trolling and people familiar with the said quote know the meaning - a absolute denial instead of "hurr durr trolling".

The community is more then ArmA, its a social entity and its exactly what it is - a community

 

As a personal request, I think its better if we were to knock off with the text manipulation[bolding/coloring etc of text], its hardly productive.

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What it actually boils down to is there's several players who dislike domi and really just want to play missions all day long. The problem with that is until we see a significant amount of missions drop onto the server for 5-20 players that are relatively easy to lead and don't end in slaughtering the server [see IRA missions], its simply not going to happen.

 

People don't lead because they don't want to fail. Most of the lower player cap missions are VERY difficult, even with full numbers. Once you hit full numbers, most people say "we need to change it to a larger map!"

 

Domi is a nice alternative as players often learn how to fireteam lead and squadlead through it. Are there COs? Often not. However a majority of the time you'll see no-name players who take squadleader positions that wouldn't normally do so. I joined a few days ago [at this point it was about two weeks ago, lol] and both squads were lead by players I didn't know. They were both doing two separate things, but they were actually attempting to accomplish some form of objective. I was a pilot with an A-10, so I didn't get involved very much in the C&C matters. I just know they were calling in airstrikes on their own and requesting support in sundry ways.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm not willing to lead every single time I come home and as I'm the only regular that's on from around noon to four PST that's interested in playing Arma half the time, that pretty much means that a pubber has to step up and take control. The odds of that are very slim, hence why we have easy seeder missions. They're designed to provide maximum fun, while allowing for parts of the command structure or support structure to be non existent. That way the mission can continue and more players can hopefully join.

 

This is the third time I believe that people have gone to war with domi, no pun intended. Each time people bring the same arguments, but there's really not much in the way of a solid solution. Putting a time limit really doesn't work, it just makes the mission considerably harder. If there's very low player count, it can take a considerable amount of time for the players to get the ball rolling in a positive direction, a two hour time limit would mean that they'd lose all the assets they had just spent two hours getting. Normally that'd be just around the time when they could start assaulting the main objectives.

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Real simple.

 

Let people who are having fun alone.

 

If you do not want to play a seeder mission start a new one on the alt.

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Does that not defeat the purpose of a seeder mission if by definition a seeder mission is to seed players on the server to eventually play larger coops and tvt's? We have seen both here and in other communities that there can be a caste of players who only want to play domination. The opposite is true that there are players that dislike domination and refuse to play it. I think the argument not being made is how do we make Domination better suited to gelling with our other missions (from leadership, tactics, etc...). To exclude some missions from standard mission rules can be foolish. I don't personally have a stance on this, I just want to foster discussion.

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When there is no coherent/organized plan in place with no specific mission commander in place or not forthcoming, that would be the time to end the seeder mission. Difficult to enforce obviously, but a big one nonetheless.

 

A time limit is iffy as there may be times it would end during an actual organized attack.

 

My suggestion:

 

Player count: Have a macro roll every five min. once 15 players in game that says something along the lines "Seeder player count reached. New mission advised."

 

Brings the whole reason for having a seeder mission to the forefront of all the players. Its up to them at that point.

 

Actual end conditions for seeders are difficult to implement due to their overall sandbox nature.

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When there is no coherent/organized plan in place with no specific mission commander in place or not forthcoming, that would be the time to end the seeder mission. Difficult to enforce obviously, but a big one nonetheless.

 

A time limit is iffy as there may be times it would end during an actual organized attack.

 

My suggestion:

 

Player count: Have a macro roll every five min. once 15 players in game that says something along the lines "Seeder player count reached. New mission advised."

 

Brings the whole reason for having a seeder mission to the forefront of all the players. Its up to them at that point.

 

Actual end conditions for seeders are difficult to implement due to their overall sandbox nature.

 

We did that already, we lowered the count to 20 so people will have to switch to another mission. I think ZZEZ mentioned 15 at some point. Domi has end condition though, complete the 6 objectives.

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If you guys want to have a pissing contest do it another place. I'm going to continue to moderate off topic, flame posts.

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Krause, I am confused here.

 

I thought there was a SOP already in place for this sort of thing to limit seeder missions? As in they can't go over 20 in player count and it, like all missions, should not individually go over two hours?

 

As previously said there are objectives to be done in Domi and, sure, these objectives are rarely done. (See; Side objectives get you toys. When you have toys + numbers you could attack main objectives... But that just ends the mission and you lose your toys, anyway, and beside that you probably will have people screaming to play a real mission once you get to that 14-ish number requirement)

 

A casualty limit doesn't entirely make sense, either, especially being that there are lots of unlimited respawns about.

 

Now, that said, to my knowledge there are three seeder missions; The various shades of Domination, Executive outcomes and I think Insurgency is still on. I haven't seen EO since it got played to death after Krause released it and Insurgency even less, so I am thinking entirely about Domi in this.

 

Regardless, however, fairly arbitrarily ending a sandbox-y mission just to have it likely get restarted (Ending the mission probably won't make it magically turn into a "real" mission unless the playercount is high enough, in which case a "real" mission would probably be selected prior, anyway) doesn't really fly for me, so I am voting no.

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