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krause

[Op: SOP] Mission Making SOP: Time Limit [2011-04-14]

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So people trying to seed the server during European hours will be stifled, restarting the game every few hours and losing the progress even that there are only 10 people and no one is interested in a real mission?doesn't seem reasonable at all to me.

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First suggestion:

 

If Insurgency is on and someone is honestly commanding, in my experience that commander, if human, would only want to command until 2 or 3 caches are destroyed. More than that is just a grind and it goes on longer than anyone would really want to command unless they have squad leads who make it easy.

 

So, if Insurgency is chosen during late afternoon U.S. time, just set the mission parameter to 2 or 3 caches. If the 3rd cache is taking a while and people are waiting, I, if commanding, would call the mission.

 

Could we make it established with everyone that seeder missions just before prime time should have the parameters set so that the mission does not last too late? If people do not set the parameters, can we just assume that 1 or 2 missions in domi or 2 or 3 caches in Insurgency is the limit when people are getting off work and it's time for UO's missions?

 

Second suggestion:

 

Just like the previous issues with trolling and chaos on the servers, people actually speaking up on TS and making their opinions known would go a long way. Rules are not entirely superior to persuasion and suggestion. Simply saying you are waiting should be persuasive to the rest of us. As in, we should let ourselves be persuaded, or at least listen, and not be boneheads and just ignore everything because we're playing the game. I don't like that and I don't do it, and since I've been playing more lately, I've been checking in the waiting room when not wondering why people sit there and never say anything.

 

If someone is in the Waiting Room, why can't they hop down in the in-game channel and check with the admin and/or command about the probably time to mission end and make it clear they are waiting for a new mission? Better yet, if several people are waiting, one of them can ask how many are actually waiting, and hop down a channel and both check on the mission status and let the admin and CO know how many people are waiting. Otherwise, it's kind of a guessing game wondering whether any player's presence in the waiting room should always be assumed to be like a vote. Which should mean no one should be in there if not actually waiting. Letting one person check with the admin or CO, quickly and concisely, shouldn't be a big problem even if they are on global.

 

Could we discuss a policy regarding how admins/COs should weigh the number of people playing versus the number of people waiting? May as well also consider factoring in how long those players have been waiting. If I actually, without a doubt know even a handful of people are waiting, and I am commanding or admin, the longer they are waiting, the more I feel compelled to facilitate the mission ending somehow. This might help with all missions in general, and not just seeder missions.

 

I'm thinking the above two points about A., limiting seeder mission time by limiting objectives in mission parameter settings, and B., having some community guideline for sensibly and consistently dealing with waiting players, both should provide an easier solution to the community.

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If you want to donate a ton to UO you are more than welcome but it has been set in stone from the beginning that no one at UO will be have extra rights/privileges for donating or whatever. It prevents any sort of split between member/ premium member or whatever.

 

Excellent point. Sometimes I resort to humor to illustrate a point.


...It has to do with allowing more of a variety on the server during weekdays. Missions which have no end essentially clog up the server all day and stifle the server population' date=' while dozens of people are waiting over the course of it to play something else.

[/quote']

 

The part I do not understand is why you said “clog up the server” when there are two servers that provide “variety”, “to play something else”?

 

Is there a different between Primary and Alt server performance and/or mission file access?

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yes hawkeye,

Primary: tactical missions, sandbox/seeders for non-primetime play

Alternate: anything else

 

it's to establish a clear boundry between UO's focus (tactical missions), and LOL/RPG/zombies/stuff that some people want to play but don't represent UO

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So people trying to seed the server during European hours will be stifled' date=' restarting the game every few hours and losing the progress even that there are only 10 people and no one is interested in a real mission?doesn't seem reasonable at all to me.

[/quote']

 

Well i'm all for making a time range in which a time limit is necessary, but unfortunately there is no way to enforce this other than allowing the missions on the server without a time limit than hoping that people have the common courtesy to enforce the rules.

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As a new Member to UO community (this is only my second post)' date=' I really do not understand what is going on. Is there a stigma to playing on a sever labeled “Alt”? If so why not change the server names to “Alpha & Bravo” or “One & Two” or let whoever contributes the most financially to UO that month have the naming rights like they do for sports complexes. Naming rights could be fun and generate additional philanthropic revenue for UO.

 

If “Naming rights” is implemented get ready to play on “The Boston Garden” and “Fenway Park” servers! :)

[/quote']

 

we need a "Miller Park" server

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Asking the server admin to use his own discretion is a far better solution then to force a restart on none prime time hours, I heard on TS that yesterday there were 15 guys[exaggeration?I don't know, but its what I heard] on the waiting room while insurgency was being played..none of these thought to hop on the server and tell the admin that there are 15 guys waiting for a different mission?that alone would have gotten the mission changed if there was a reasonable admin on instead of forcing it with arbitrary rules.

 

I could think of a solution or two to solve the issue of Insurgency or Domi being played during prime time without using time limit, its just as easy to lower the player count back to 20, but the question has to asked why people are playing seeder missions during prime time?

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yes hawkeye' date='

Primary: tactical missions, sandbox/seeders for non-primetime play

Alternate: anything else

 

it's to establish a clear boundry between UO's focus (tactical missions), and LOL/RPG/zombies/stuff that some people want to play but don't represent UO

[/quote']

 

The reason I am seeking clarification is that if I do not understand there is a reasonable chance other Members do not also understand the nuance you are suggesting as well.

 

I understand and greatly appreciate the United Operations tactical emphasis.

 

What I do not understand is why it would be necessary to interrupt play on one server if a perfectly good server is available.

 

I guess what I am too subtly suggesting is why let the name of a server matter if in the end they are the same hardware and software. Does a server name really represent UO, or do players having a good time on a server represent UO?

 

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose

By any other name would smell as sweet."

Bill Shakespeare

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I agree with the sentiment, but:

 

I'd rather see it left to admin discretion. If the majority of people are enjoying the mission and it is progressing, then I don't see the issue of keeping the mission up.

 

This does require some sensible, active admining and the courage to end a mission when there's a vocal minority against it.

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In the past I was all for bringing it up with the current server pop when they played domi(before insurgency.) When someone came into the room and told us we should play, and we said we wanted to play something else, I got a "fuck you killa" and he left. We had just as many people waiting to play STRUCTURED, TACTICAL MISSIONS. But if we all hopped on the server like pirates and tried to take the server, a couple things would happen.

 

First, we'd be complete assholes and create anger in this community that no one wants.

 

Secondly, all the domi-lovers would probably leave, especially since we hijacked it and then we are too few again.

 

Third, it probably wouldn't even pass(stealing admin/voting) because the domi-lovers would all oppose it forever and ever so they can do "just one more side objective" and another, and another, and another. There is no end when all you do is side missions folks.

 

So no, we are not going to hop into the main channel and be like "hey guys lets play something else" all we get is hate and derision for it and it doesn't even change. If there was a 2h/3h time limit we could finally get real missions and domi/insurgency together, but since the vote appears like its going to fail we might as well just call server 1 Insurgency/Domi except for TVT's on saturday. IF YOU WANT TO PLAY INSURGENCY FOR LONGER THAN 2h/3h, PLAY ON THE ALT. SERVER! Thats what its designed for. If you want to play domi/insurgency on the main server, realize now that YOU ARE SEEDING, THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE MISSION IS TO GAIN MORE PLAYERS SO WE CAN PLAY OTHER MISSIONS. If you refuse to see this fact than .. well, I don't know. It must feel nice too having your map played 24/7 while everyone else's stuff gets thrown in the dust.

 

 

@Zzez: If you want to see my opinion on why seeder missions are inherently untactical you may find the thread/poll thread about domi where I debated with ham.

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I must confess sandi…

 

I quoted your fellow Englishman I a transparent attempt to curry favor. And although I used the more familiar form at least I did not use” Billy”!

 

 

krause…

 

I know I was somewhat off point. I hope offering the perspective that it is not a question of time regulation for players or mission makers but rather a question of levering our fantastic resources was not offensive.

 

It is somewhat my nature to question additional regulations. Certainly the atmosphere at UO to rely the community to behave responsibly over excessive structure is one of the things I have found most refreshing and appealing.

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SO inca how do you explain the Domi event we had where it went damn near flawless for 5 hours? To say something cannot be played tactical with such solidity in the fact you are correct and everyone else is wrong show ignorance. Domi can be played just fine with the right leadership and the right people in the correct slots. Also stating something as fact when its really just an opinion also show ignorance.

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In the past I was all for bringing it up with the current server pop when they played domi(before insurgency.) When someone came into the room and told us we should play' date=' and we said we wanted to play something else, I got a "fuck you killa" and he left. We had just as many people waiting to play STRUCTURED, TACTICAL MISSIONS. But if we all hopped on the server like pirates and tried to take the server, a couple things would happen.

 

First, we'd be complete assholes and create anger in this community that no one wants.

 

Secondly, all the domi-lovers would probably leave, especially since we hijacked it and then we are too few again.

 

Third, it probably wouldn't even pass(stealing admin/voting) because the domi-lovers would all oppose it forever and ever so they can do "just one more side objective" and another, and another, and another. There is no end when all you do is side missions folks.

 

So no, we are not going to hop into the main channel and be like "hey guys lets play something else" all we get is hate and derision for it and it doesn't even change. If there was a 2h/3h time limit we could finally get real missions and domi/insurgency together, but since the vote appears like its going to fail we might as well just call server 1 Insurgency/Domi except for TVT's on saturday. IF YOU WANT TO PLAY INSURGENCY FOR LONGER THAN 2h/3h, PLAY ON THE ALT. SERVER! Thats what its designed for. If you want to play domi/insurgency on the main server, realize now that YOU ARE SEEDING, THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE MISSION IS TO GAIN MORE PLAYERS SO WE CAN PLAY OTHER MISSIONS. If you refuse to see this fact than .. well, I don't know. It must feel nice too having your map played 24/7 while everyone else's stuff gets thrown in the dust.

 

 

@Zzez: If you want to see my opinion on why seeder missions are inherently untactical you may find the thread/poll thread about domi where I debated with ham.

[/quote']

 

Killa who are these "domi" players you speak of?I just had a quick look at the server population:

1. 	SAbre 	42 	2:32:25
2. 	Reaper Two 	30 	4:14:13
2. 	TinfoilHate 	30 	17:13
4. 	S6! Acebane 	24 	1:48:51
5. 	Nehna_Arab 	23 	2:30:49
6. 	The Count 	19 	22:02
7. 	ThatGingerBastard 	16 	2:36:43
8. 	J.Santos 	12 	2:24:58
9. 	Jules Winnfield 	9 	1:28:41
10. 	S6! KertusRay 	8 	3:30:26
11. 	Greg 	5 	29:10
12. 	FL-PVTAndy[EEF] 	3 	14:36
13. 	CroMagnon 	0 	2:56:24
13. 	WhatisLove 	0 	11:23
13. 	Smith 	0 	11:23
13. 	Stagger 	0 	00:12  

 

I recognize[well except the new guys] all these players from playing tactical missions, its not right to say that theres a certain segment of the population that only plays Domi/Insurgency.

 

The purpose of Domi and Insurgency is to seed, inevitably people will leave when you change the mission but that can be due to allot of reasons like not having enough time to play a proper mission and not wanting to drop in the middle[something you can do in seeders] or just having played enough of ArmA for the day, I do not believe we actually have guys that are running away from the server on purpose because a real mission is being played.

 

Now regarding your point of getting heat for wanting to change a mission - its understandable but just deal with it, its the internet...not serious business.

 

With your last sentence I'm not too sure what your on about or maybe I'm not reading it right

It must feel nice too having your map played 24/7 while everyone else's stuff gets thrown in the dust.

I don't really look at it that way, its nice that we're playing a mission that me and Hawkeye tweaked for UO...but I personally prefer real missions.

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SO inca how do you explain the Domi event we had where it went damn near flawless for 5 hours? To say something cannot be played tactical with such solidity in the fact you are correct and everyone else is wrong show ignorance. Domi can be played just fine with the right leadership and the right people in the correct slots. Also stating something as fact when its really just an opinion also show ignorance.

 

I said domi is inherently untactical, as in most of the time it is not. There are exceptions like you said.

 

 

also I said "if you don't see this fact" in regards to domi/insurgency being designed as a seeder mission. Thats what the mission makers have said and what their description says. :)

 

 

@zzez: Doesn't matter who the players are, just because they are who they are doesn't mean they are playing tactically.

 

 

@heat statement: This is a community. I'm not going to cause that kind of shitstorm, its not worth it. I might as well not play if I have to drag you guys out everytime.

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The purpose of Domi and Insurgency is to seed

 

Speaking personally, they're not that good seeders, the mission gets to like 16ish players, and it just stops going up. I've seen this happen. missions like EO are much better seeders, AND it has a time limit.

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@zzez: Doesn't matter who the players are' date=' just because they are who they are doesn't mean they are playing tactically.

 

 

@heat statement: This is a community. I'm not going to cause that kind of shitstorm, its not worth it. I might as well not play if I have to drag you guys out everytime.

[/quote']

 

I was under the assumption that you believe its domi-players causing the issue at hand, now you say it doesn't matter who but how they play?with that I can agree, in seeders you can herp-derp without too much consequences and its up to the squad leaders and commander to enforce tactical behavior.

 

When I have the time and patience I like commanding Domi and Insurgency[not enough balls to even SL a real mission yet though] and I make the players behave tactically with me structuring the mission, I make a plan and order of attack and it works out just fine with people having fun and playing it properly, other times you can hop on the server and theres no one commanding and everyone are doing whatever you like - you can't blame the mission if people don't step up to lead...if no one is willing to lead a consequences free mission then how many of these players are willing to lead a heavy consequences mission where a single command mistake will wipe out an entire hour worth of progress?:)

 

The purpose of Domi and Insurgency is to seed

 

Speaking personally' date=' they're not that good seeders, the mission gets to like 16ish players, and it just stops going up. I've seen this happen. missions like EO are much better seeders, AND it has a time limit.

[/quote']

 

Personally, I have seen more then enough times of Domi and Insurgency getting the server population to +25 and starting real missions.

What does EO stand for btw?I wanna try that out now that you mentioned it.

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I agree with the sentiment' date=' but:

 

I'd rather see it left to admin discretion. If the majority of people are enjoying the mission and it is progressing, then I don't see the issue of keeping the mission up.

 

This does require some sensible, active admining and the courage to end a mission when there's a vocal minority against it.

[/quote']

 

Ok and how is a vocal minority, or a majority supposed to voice a desire to change? Talking on side chat is prohibited on our servers. So is talking over everyone in the TS channel. A mission ending due to a coherent, reasonable time limit gives pause for a new mission to be selected. As of now there is no mechanism to "rock the vote" and never will be.

 

I'd also appreciate if everyone stopped with what is tactical and what is not discussion. This POLL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MISSIONS BEING TACTICAL OR NOT. It has to do with a mission being on the server all day when there are a mass of people waiting to play something else. Server 1 is not dedicated to one or two missions, it's supposed to be a place where a variety of tactical gameplay is offered.

 

As of the time of this post there are 12 people waiting and 19 playing.

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SO inca how do you explain the Domi event we had where it went damn near flawless for 5 hours? To say something cannot be played tactical with such solidity in the fact you are correct and everyone else is wrong show ignorance. Domi can be played just fine with the right leadership and the right people in the correct slots. Also stating something as fact when its really just an opinion also show ignorance.

 

see: Domi event.

 

There's a differance between day to day gameplay, and events where people know (or should know) what the fuck is going on. No one is hosting a domi event currently, they're just playing it during prime time when we could have actual missions played, there are PLENTY of domi servers, if people want to play those missions, there are places for them to get their fix, the UO server is NOT a domi server, and i feel that that's part of what makes our community unique. Krause's SOP suggestion is to give a good variety to missions on the server, that's all, there are other places in the ArmA communites to play missions for 4324326897346 hours at a time. There are domi, insurgency, and CL servers. I'd rather UO didn't become one of those.

 

also, EO=executive outcomes.

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I lost interest in this discussion because its pointless.

 

I don't think we'll ever get to play during weekdays lol.

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I understand that Azz but the UO server is what ever the community decides it is, if we want domi not played during primetime or on server 1 at all, make a poll, thats how we founded this community.

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Meh.

 

Inca, we play missions occasionally on Tuesdays and Thursdays. But for the most part, no one wants to dedicate time to a co-op mission, so often we'll toss on a domi or INS map and call it a day.

 

I don't mind teamleading in the slightest and if no one else volunteers, I run as a squadleader, but more often than not, I simply don't have the energy to run a platoon. Most of the time, I'm one of the only "responsible" leaders on, around 6pm EST. Now I'm not saying Cro, Tinfoil and Fighter don't show up randomly. But I've noticed the last few weeks that there's been a dry period for leaders.

 

It's pretty simple. No leaders? No Co-op. If you come into an INS map, and shout to change the map for ten minutes, only to have us sit at the loading screen because no one wants to lead? Yeah you're gonna have people drop. They're pissed. I left myself the other day because we were doing well in a domi, a few guys complained that we were playing domi and said we should play a mission. We load up a mission and sat at the lobby for ten minutes while people twiddled their thumbs.

 

INS and Domi are easy to run tactically. If anything, at the squad level. I always gather up whoever joins my squad, dictate fireteams and create a solid objective. Yeah, we'll have random people running around rambo, causing the idea that domi isn't tactical, but there are legit teams running around out there [at least mine normally is]. As has been said, the rambos tend to get wasted, giving the tactical teams knowledge of where the enemy happens to be hiding out.

 

Personally, I think after three cashes INS gets old. Domi tends to wear a little bit after two LZs or a few side missions. I just join them for kicks and giggles. After an objective is completed, if there's someone around who wants to lead, we normally switch to a mission like November Down or Steamroller.

 

It all comes down to people willing to step up to take the golden bars.

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As of the time of this post there are 12 people waiting and 19 playing.

 

FYI - they switched from Insurgency to a real mission and about 3 people joined' date=' me, Inca and Foxxy out of these 12.

 

 

I don't think we'll ever get to play during weekdays lol.

 

You just got proved wrong today didn't you?:D

I still trust the admin's abilities to be sensible to know when to end a seeder mission and start playing, I think its far better then arbitrary rules.

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I have an idea.

Simple.

All Non Domi, Insurgency type missions on ALT server.

All TvT, COOP missions on Primary server.

When people want to crank up actual UO style/core missions, they can jump to ALT and announce what they plan to do on Primary server.

Then, start actual missions on Primary server and seed that way, and work up in numbers naturally. Cause to be honest, people want to play what they want, and taking or changing over a server wont work.

A choice is only the real option. And fair one. If it works, and people want to play actual missions, it will, if it don't, then it just ain't in the cards that day.

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I understand that Azz but the UO server is what ever the community decides it is' date=' if we want domi not played during primetime or on server 1 at all, make a poll, thats how we founded this community.

[/quote']

 

poll has been made. you're posting in it (this thread). I'm trying to convince those who want to play it all the time that there are other places to do so.

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This poll has nothing to do with domi being played on the server, it has to do with time limits on missions. reading FTL

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