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Kingslayer

UO's Death Throes

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This seems like an excuse for a good response to a stupid thing to say by Kingslayer. A cop out.

Your post is even more silly with Kingslayer having been a staunch opponent to the BTE when it was discussed and voted on, for him now to be making this thread.

 

Thawk, you Irish prick. I'll run you over with my tank.

You know I'm just saying that Thawk blew up over one line that might have been in jest. Anyway, there's nothing silly about opposing BTE and then making a uo ded thread (slap the cuffs on me, FM). A barrier to entry wasn't a (good) solution then and it isn't now. 

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A barrier to entry only has any effect if Regulars are willing to babysit each and every new entry and instructing them to take their place and following them like hens follow their chicks. Taking in fewer people and letting them be is just choking the community to death. It's a hefty commitment.

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BTE sounds easy to implement but no one will commit to processing the new players who want to to get access to the server.   If we were serious to BTE we would have processed every new player who showed up to play ARMA at UO for 6 months to show Impulse we are committed.

 

If anyone really wants a BTE then instead of blaming everyone else they should step up and set up and maintain a process of certifying every new guy for the next 6 months (until Feb 2018).  If we could do that then it might be reasonable to accept a BTE proposal.  This would be proof to Impulse that we can look after applying the BTE.

 

The alternative is we set up a BTE and as new guys show up there is no one around to confirm they are okay.  New guys just cant use the server cause no one is committed.  So a BTE without commitment will just mean less new guys get to play ARMA here.

 

And even if we set up a BTE we still have the same problem.  The server is open 24/7 and no one is responsible.  To say that everyone is accountable at the same time just means that if everyone is derping it is okay.   The only way to effectively control the server is to require designated players to monitor and address behavior or it is shut off.  Allowing self policing works in theory but without commitment it fails in practice.

 

Blaming the regulars for all the woes on the primary is short sighted.  I'm heard many players articulate that they wanted serious mil sim style game play.  They tried to encourage missions that were thoughtful and believable.  Their efforts were met with an onslaught of opposition by players who want lots of action and less organization.  A lot of players (regulars and long time members) left because they got tired of resisting the LOL and rats in a box style missions.  To blame these players now is non-sense.  They are not even here.   Many of the long time members and regs that are still playing do so because they are content to play without forcing their values on the player base.  They are willing to accept that not every mission will be excellent.

 

Adhoc training results in opposing  instruction that confuses players.  Poor (conflicting) training is worse than no training.  Mediocre training is harmless, but expecting players to watch a video or attend a short session and then retain the basic skills (that take soldiers/gamers days/weeks/months to develop) is not realistic.  Videos and short sessions just don't change the game play on the primary.  Proper training must be standardized and modular and can build skills and develop the quality of play on the primary but it take more than 20 minutes of a new guy's time.  It must be exciting and enjoyable.  All of us need to participate in the training, regularly.  Training doesn't work if only the new guys watch a lecture ... once.  Proper training would need a lot of support with - Mission Makers (very important), Video makers, Guest instructors (Thawk,  jOzh94, JB, Militant etc) and a whole platoon of instructors/assistants. UOTC must have a hard ass manager to effectively arbitrate conflict and set our direction but he/she can't do much without the support of the community.  Currently the biggest problem with UOTC is lack of participation.  We have recently had great training in Squad leadership, Platoon OPs, JTAC, Helicopter, Land Nav, Mech Ops that have all be cancelled due to lack of attendees.  Complaining about UOTC is popular.  If you really want to help show up at any training (except the Fam courses) and participate.  

 

These ideas are all just dreaming.  UO is still the best ARMA community there is.  We have an exceptional level of expertise here.  Good tactical skills.  It is not serious enough for me but it is still a great place to enjoy ARMA.

 

How much can you expect from a bunch of casual gamers.

Edited by Jimbo

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You know I'm just saying that Thawk blew up over one line that might have been in jest. Anyway, there's nothing silly about opposing BTE and then making a uo ded thread (slap the cuffs on me, FM). A barrier to entry wasn't a (good) solution then and it isn't now. 

 

I didn't realise "blowing up" now is throwing in a few curse words in a reply. Noted. JB is talking about the seemingly contradictory nature of it, which I would agree. I continue to maintain BTE was a viable solution, not the best one, not the only one but we saw a problem and we tried to do something about it, but look it didn't get voted in, so how about trying to look for a different solution and considering your obviously the expert in good and bad solutions I'm all for assisting you or who ever gets your nomination for a "good" solution.

 

A barrier to entry only has any effect if Regulars are willing to babysit each and every new entry and instructing them to take their place and following them like hens follow their chicks. Taking in fewer people and letting them be is just choking the community to death. It's a hefty commitment.

 

This above reply is a great example of what is a common trend throughout this thread, people who haven't a fucking notion about the proposed BTE was. Here's the TL:DR: It was a sign up form followed by a fami course, literally that's what it was. It wasn't the regulars job, it was UOTC and volunteers. It could be ran effectively by one person. It added a small layer of waiting to maybe weed out shit heads and a face to face before people getting into the server to just get an idea of how to act. I'm not sure where you guys are getting you information from.

 

And Jimbo I'm sorry, but you're misinformed, there were plenty of people ready to commit to BTE and to do it for UO and sacrifice even more personal time. We were ready to step up, we were ready to show commitment, you can't just say 2 or 3 years on "oh yea, but no one actually is committed" when we 100% were. It was all ready to set up, but UO doesn't run like what you're suggesting, motions have to be passed by a majority, we can't just opt to do a trial without a majority which we didn't have. You know this, you've been here long enough.

Edited by Thawk

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And Jimbo I'm sorry, but you're misinformed, there were plenty of people ready to commit to BTE and to do it for UO and sacrifice even more personal time. We were ready to step up, we were ready to show commitment, you can't just say 2 or 3 years on "oh yea, but no one actually is committed" when we 100% were. It was all ready to set up, but UO doesn't run like what you're suggesting, motions have to be passed by a majority, we can't just opt to do a trial without a majority which we didn't have. You know this, you've been here long enough.

 

Actually ... I'm not misinformed.   The big concern was we have many new players joining UO constantly.   Suppose we get 10 - 20 players a week joining UO.  I remember Impulse agreeing that if we could show him we were serious he would consider the BTE.   Six months would have gone by fast.  No-one set up and implemented a system to ensure that all the new guys were processed quickly.   I understood the concern,  He wanted a demonstration not a promise.

 

If I am so mistaken who was prepared to process all the new guys?  I don't remember anyone who was dedicated to do it.  It was a concept.  Someone would do it, but no one was prepared to process the new guys for a specific period.  No names.  No times.  Just a general group intent.

 

It's not too late to show that it can be done.  But I doubt anyone will step up an fulfill the role.

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[...]

 

Blaming the regulars for all the woes on the primary is short sighted.  I'm heard many players articulate that they wanted serious mil sim style game play.  They tried to encourage missions that were thoughtful and believable.  Their efforts were met with an onslaught of opposition by players who want lots of action and less organization.  A lot of players (regulars and long time members) left because they got tired of resisting the LOL and rats in a box style missions.  To blame these players now is non-sense.  They are not even here.   Many of the long time members and regs that are still playing do so because they are content to play without forcing their values on the player base.  They are willing to accept that not every mission will be excellent.

 

[...]

 

These ideas are all just dreaming.  UO is still the best ARMA community there is.  We have an exceptional level of expertise here.  Good tactical skills.  It is not serious enough for me but it is still a great place to enjoy ARMA.

 

How much can you expect from a bunch of casual gamers.

 

With all the negative things pointed out here it may be easy to oversee the good things.  I could not agree more with the highlighted part above.  Although I too would appreciate a more serious and calm atmosphere on the server and a general increase in quality, I have yet to find a place I would rather play ArmA at.  This place still offers something unique, something that appeals greatly to me and keeps me around.  It is sad to see that a lot of good folks I enjoyed playing with here left or are no longer participating frequently in casual games.  It's getting harder for me to get the enjoyment out of the game that I used to, simply because the general attitude towards playing this game seems to differ a lot regarding my expectations and what the majority here likes.

 

Nonetheless, I welcome any attempt of anyone to try and alter the seemingly decreasing level of play, be it a regular or just another community member.

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 and considering your obviously the expert in good and bad solutions I'm all for assisting you or who ever gets your nomination for a "good" solution.

Alright 

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This above reply is a great example of what is a common trend throughout this thread, people who haven't a fucking notion about the proposed BTE was. Here's the TL:DR: It was a sign up form followed by a fami course, literally that's what it was. 

 

Aside from taking a famil course (which cmon, everyone should do anyway) It would have probably just about as time consuming as the current Auth system. An issue I can see is that there aren't as many new people filtering through any more, so the usefulness of BTE is somewhat up in the air. It's people that have been here a while that are the origin of this perceived downward trend in competency. Not new guys.

 

Also, I miss you.

Edited by JakCurse

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The be all, end all issue is that ArmA at UO doesn't sufficiently appeal to or retain those type of players and persons one could build a lasting competent player base on.

A thriving and evolving playerbase is driven by enthusiasm that manifests itself in mission makers, players who step up to moderate or administrate the server, put effort into training or teaching others and simply show up to play. A proof of this is in the Regular applications and nominations, or lack thereof, coming from A3. Granted, it is now required to be a donator in order to be a Regular, but the fee is small and can be overcome easily if one is willing. Regulars are the embodiment of the community values and the type of persons we appeal to, so when compared to the frequency of nominations and applications from years past it becomes apparent that we are lacking in this department.

 

Why aren't we appealing to or retaining these persons? Some can be attributed to the nature of being an open community with an ever revolving door. This can result in fatigue for admins and teachers as they will have to deal with the same issues over again, something which I believe is less pronounced in a closed community. Being an open community has many, many great benefits to it with the ease of which a person can come along and find a place for sometime or even life, where they wouldn't have ventured had it been closed, with the community reaping the benefits of their skills. It allows a greater diversity of personalities that give different insights and viewpoints. However, it seems this upward curve was broken around the introduction of Day Z, perhaps it is not possible to reverse it at all.

The watering down of skills and quality of gameplay directly affect the attraction of the community.

As has been pointed out we aren't promoting ourselves well enough or to sufficient degree that we may reach these desirable players.

 

What can we do?

Shit, it is the same discussion over again and while I won't beat the BTE drum this time around, I will tell you what you shouldn't do. Forget training frequency or quality being a remedy to the issue. There's a Danish saying that you can pull the horse to the trough, but you can't force it to drink. We can and have tried to reinvent, ruinvigerate and represent UOTC and player-held courses widely throughout the community from the time I joined UTOC under Zedic and Jake Perill, until Godhand and I stepped up and down as Traning Officers and now under Azzwort. The players that attend courses are automatically no longer part of the problem. Yes, they might absolutely fucking suck at the game, drills and what have you, but they are dedicated and enthusiastic players who take opportunities to better themselves, and in the long run they will likely prove capable players and good members of our community. What should be focused on instead is those who do not attend courses, how they are reached and improved or in the other ditch, removed or negated from ever joining the community to begin with. Training will not solve this.

 

 

 I don't think you'll ever recapture the kind of gameplay UO used to have when it was smaller.

UO is smaller now than it almost ever has been. Our playcounts are pathetic compared to "the golden years". Used to be able to log on every day and play 30+ missions, active all night until like 6 in the morning; the weekends regularly saw 70+. Now on Saturdays we're lucky to breach 45 organically, and only get those high playcounts with organized events (and sometimes not even then). 

Just look at the forums. The number of posts, new regs, reg apps, and bans has slowed dramatically since the end of Arma 2. 

When we transitioned to A3 we were absolutely not prepared for it. There was no custom content and almost no missions, and it absolutely impacted the community in a way it has not quite yet recovered from. 

 

I would agree with many of the people here that we currently have both a skills and mentality issue, but I would HIGHLY disagree with the analysis of why. 

I do not believe it is due to an increase in new players, but the opposite. 

During the A2 days, there were absolutely a majority of random players who were absolute shit with a shit mentality, but it didnt matter, beacuse there were enough dedicated players who weren't to smooth things out and enforce what was our standard taking leadership and specialist roles in the community and the missions. If you were doing a company mission, as long as you could fill CL/PL/SL's with skilled players the rest could be absolute mouth breathers and it'd work out fine. Players who didnt enjoy WAC's and didn't enjoy five para and didn't get along with "The Old Guard" would cause problems for a week or two or maybe a month and then disappear, while those that did stayed. Wheat from the chaff, if you would. 

Over time a larger and larger percentage of the community was derived from those who stayed, and they learned to make missions and joined UOTC or whatever. But some also left for whatever reasons. 

I firmly believe that the decline is gameplay is not as a result of new players (after all isnt it the same names you see fucking about week after week after week?) but as a result of a lack of recruitment that has resulted in a skills drain. Everytime somebody good stops playing here, or starts playing here less and less often, they no longer get replaced.

Wheat from the chaff doesn't work if you don't have enough chaff to start with.

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Actually ... I'm not misinformed. The big concern was we have many new players joining UO constantly. Suppose we get 10 - 20 players a week joining UO. I remember Impulse agreeing that if we could show him we were serious he would consider the BTE. Six months would have gone by fast. No-one set up and implemented a system to ensure that all the new guys were processed quickly. I understood the concern, He wanted a demonstration not a promise.

 

If I am so mistaken who was prepared to process all the new guys? I don't remember anyone who was dedicated to do it. It was a concept. Someone would do it, but no one was prepared to process the new guys for a specific period. No names. No times. Just a general group intent.

 

It's not too late to show that it can be done. But I doubt anyone will step up an fulfill the role.

I'm sorry Jimbo, but what the hell are you talking about? At the time I had a full list of volunteers ready at the vote and the creation of a new UOTC non-officer position to assist all of the already willing UOTC members. Second to that, we already had the capacity to process 10-20 a week at the time as we did weekly famils also. And finally, once again, Impulse was ok with it if it PASSED a vote. Which it didn't, so it never happened. But we had the entire structure and personnel ready to go.

 

You say you're not misinformed but what you're writing is pure fallacy. Even the fact your saying about there being no one willing to commit or willing to process is a pure lie considering I was the proponent and had all of UOTC ready to go behind me. It's like you've erased it from memory.

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Players who didn't enjoy WAC's and didn't enjoy five para and didn't get along with "The Old Guard" would cause problems for a week or two or maybe a month and then disappear, while those that did stayed.

Those players were like pebbles in the old guard's boots. Irritating, tiresome and distracting. We have had 50 new members join UO so far in July. That is more than 3 per day. You think perhaps so few are playing ARMA cause the old guard have removed their boots?

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You think perhaps so few are playing ARMA cause the old guard have removed their boots?

To be honest, I don't entirely follow this last bit of the metaphor, Jimbo.

What I do know is that only around 500 unique players have visited the workshop collection. I assume you're counting forum accounts?

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I'm sorry Jimbo, but what the hell are you talking about? At the time I had a full list of volunteers ready at the vote and the creation of a new UOTC non-officer position to assist all of the already willing UOTC members. Second to that, we already had the capacity to process 10-20 a week at the time as we did weekly famils also. And finally, once again, Impulse was ok with it if it PASSED a vote. Which it didn't, so it never happened. But we had the entire structure and personnel ready to go.

 

You say you're not misinformed but what you're writing is pure fallacy. Even the fact your saying about there being no one willing to commit or willing to process is a pure lie considering I was the proponent and had all of UOTC ready to go behind me. It's like you've erased it from memory.

I'm not saying there were no well intention-ed people, or that there are NO people saying they were WILLING to commit. But saying and doing are separated but wide gulfs. Lots of UO players and regulars here have committed and failed to fulfill.

I remember that the main concern was if we implemented the BTE the group (that had generally agreed to assess everyone) would be on vacation or working or playing fallout. It would be alot to expect some players available 24/7 on standby to process new players.

Eventually new players would not be assessed promptly. So I proposed that we show we could fulfill our intent by doing it for a specific time. Six months or a year. Seemed like a great way to remove a lot of the risk (and doubt) and help Impulse to support the initiative. I'm not telling a lie or delusional. But I am forgetful. :smile:

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S4dguyinsnow,

 

I just like your reference to the old guard. Most of my metaphors are confusing (delusional?) I was counting forum accounts but my point was that I was amazed to learn the potential for influx of new players should there be a surge in UO ARMA appeal.

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I'm not saying there were no well intention-ed people, or that there are NO people saying they were WILLING to commit. But saying and doing are separated but wide gulfs. Lots of UO players and regulars here have committed and failed to fulfill.

I remember that the main concern was if we implemented the BTE the group (that had generally agreed to assess everyone) would be on vacation or working or playing fallout. It would be alot to expect some players available 24/7 on standby to process new players.

Eventually new players would not be assessed promptly. So I proposed that we show we could fulfill our intent by doing it for a specific time. Six months or a year. Seemed like a great way to remove a lot of the risk (and doubt) and help Impulse to support the initiative. I'm not telling a lie or delusional. But I am forgetful. :smile:

 

Once again, UO requires a vote for things to happen. We were willing, the vote failed, so we couldn't "do". If the vote had passed, we would have done as we said on the agreed trial. We had a large roster ready to go, one Famil a week so at the most you'd be waiting a full week until you were ok to play on the server. That's not a concern, but a fact and a con of a barrier. There is no way around it and its something we made clear would happen, but our argument for it was that a person who wanted to be here wouldn't mind waiting until the next Famil, a person who didn't, wouldn't.

 

And just to reply to Jak as I missed it, I am not at all trying to say we should do it now at all. Merely trying to correct people on this imaginary BTE they're all talking about. As I have said and will keep saying, if someone else wants to come up with their KmO approved solution, I am all in for assisting in anyway I can such as leadership courses.

Edited by Thawk

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I have only ever, and still do, have UOs best interests at heart. What an asshole, right? Thanks again King.

 

 

One of my concerns about BTE was the maturity level of the people proposing it, and the effect this might have on both it and the community.

 

Having you go off because of a flippant jokey comment, which in part was wondering if in fact BTE might have been correct, certainly does nothing to dissuade me over those original concerns.

 

The thread certainly has been a wave of nostalgia, and a lot of people are commenting who haven't played or even been an active part of the community for a very long time.

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One of my concerns about BTE was the maturity level of the people proposing it, and the effect this might have on both it and the community.

 

Having you go off because of a flippant jokey comment, which in part was wondering if in fact BTE might have been correct, certainly does nothing to dissuade me over those original concerns.

 

The thread certainly has been a wave of nostalgia, and a lot of people are commenting who haven't played or even been an active part of the community for a very long time.

 

 

I'm sorry King, but the BTE was a form followed by a Famil course. Nothing new, we did Famils every week anyway. Subjectivity and immaturity would have affected nothing. Level whatever insults you want at me, but the group of people involved at that time in UOTC were not autistic, or immature or whatever else you'd like to say, they were dedicated and committed guys.

 

I apologise that being collectively referred to as an autism reich prompted me to jump into the thread, unfortunately displaying inflection through text has yet to be sufficiently developed, but yes there was a couple of curse words and some sarcasm. I wouldn't call it "going off" and I don't see how its a reflection of maturity or not. I can assure you that I am sitting here, not vexed. I just swear a lot, awful habit. Now I do admit, I was frustrated over the misinformation being spread over the concept, but it ended there.

 

And as I said in the PM I sent you, I think your idea for "Not Dead Saturdays" is excellent and I'd be willing to assist in whatever way I can.

Edited by Thawk

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S4dguyinsnow,

 

I just like your reference to the old guard. Most of my metaphors are confusing (delusional?) I was counting forum accounts but my point was that I was amazed to learn the potential for influx of new players should there be a surge in UO ARMA appeal.

honestly the greatest barrier to entry is our freakin huge modpack. I wouldn't doubt that a significant percentage of those 50 new forum accounts never bother dl'ing the whole thing and don't end up playing.

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Admittedly I did not know what the specific of this particular BTE were. I thought it was something radical and serious. If what you wrote is the thick of it then this is nothing much more than a compulsory famil course. I fail to understand how this can solve any of the problems listed in this thread. Don't know if this proposal ever made it outside Regular's space so if it is the case I will not apologize for speaking my mind about something that made sense at least to me.

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2.1.5 - Failed Operations may not be resubmitted until two (2) weeks from it's scheduled conclusion.

 

It's been four-ish years. It seems like a hell of a lot larger of a gap than necessary to be complaining about how it only failed by a handful of votes. Ran out of steam? Everyone threw their toys and decided never to propose it again? 

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I don't mean to be a bit of a dick but why are we slinging shit about BTE? We understand the capabilities it had, why it didn't pass, etc. Sure, some people mentioned that quality MIGHT have been better if some different stuff happened, but we're down a different route now. Could we try to get back to the main, comprehensive topic at hand... ya know, the community's apparent lack of ability to be both fun and realistic without compromising either.

 

Yeah, BTE could fix a few things and mess up a few other things. Yeah, not having BTE has been a good way for the community to continue growing, but slinging shit in this thread will not help anything. A few of you are regs, if you want to go for it... go for it. The general sense I get is that we still shouldn't have it.

 

Besides that, I'd like to steer us forward. So we've mentioned a few things that have the same general jist to it. No blame, just a theme throughout everyone's posts.

 

  • Lack of Cohesion- Seems that new and old players, good or bad, seem to have less commitment than before; how do we fix that?
  • Erosion of Core Players- As I, and others have pointed out, we've lost some energy and good people due to Arma being Arma. How do we reinvigorate?
  • Leadership- Everyone needs a turn, but some of our core leaders have lost the will to teach newcomers. Is there really any way to fix this? Classes, yup, that's a nice one. Anyone got another idea?
  • Toxicity- From the nostalgia everyone has in this thread, we seem to all have different ideas on how exactly things were run in the past. I never have been a reg, so I can't really speak to this. Let's try and get past the old ways and all that jazz and think of new ways to do things. 

tl;dr: Stop shitstirring, start brainstorming on the topics discussed. (BTE Ex-fucking-cluded, preferably)

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BTE as described by Thawk doesn't sounds as a big deal as others seem to portray it. All it would do is have someone entrusted by community to maintain it's ideal have meet new players and have them go through the Famil as a mandatory thing. 45min - 1h for a player to see if they like how we play and admin to see if those players aren't going to cause any stupid, basic problems in their time here. "Barrier to Entry" makes is sound a bit more than what it is. Maybe "Intro to UO" or "Orientation course", or....oh look "Famil course".

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BTE as described by Thawk doesn't sounds as a big deal as others seem to portray it. All it would do is have someone entrusted by community to maintain it's ideal have meet new players and have them go through the Famil as a mandatory thing. 45min - 1h for a player to see if they like how we play and admin to see if those players aren't going to cause any stupid, basic problems in their time here. "Barrier to Entry" makes is sound a bit more than what it is. Maybe "Intro to UO" or "Orientation course", or....oh look "Famil course".

the actual poll doesn't even require anyone to attend a UOTC course before beginning play. It's literally just a more robust blacklist system coupled with a scout's honour auth system. 

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It's been four-ish years. It seems like a hell of a lot larger of a gap than necessary to be complaining about how it only failed by a handful of votes. Ran out of steam? Everyone threw their toys and decided never to propose it again?

Look at the colours of the names of many of the supporters in that thread. As you can see, that were at the time representative of around 74% of the community. Their names were largely green when they posted.

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