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Kingslayer

UO's Death Throes

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Pretty sure.

 

Unless it was Ultima Online.

 

Point being, my post was referring to 2012 Arma 2. Most cases people didn't get the role they wanted because they lacked the tags to say they knew how to perform at a proper level. If you managed to get that role, (Pilot, Recon, l33t sn1p3r) you were given high expectations to perform to the standard set forth. I didn't get to even lead a Fireteam til I took the appropriate courses.

 

I've played since 2012 and people took slots that they weren't competent in, sure it always happens less in prime time but it still happened. I never had any tags but I was never told to deslot from a slot because I lacked the tags. It's not as bad as you think at the moment but of course it happens. 

 

It is a current SOP 2.1 - Users that wish to take mission critical roles (Leadership & Assets) are expected to be competent in their use. If you feel it is so bad you could be the guy who bans someone for breaking 2.1 although I've never seen that happen because we all understand that "shit happens."

 

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If you feel it is so bad you could be the guy who bans someone for breaking 2.1 although I've never seen that happen because we all understand that "shit happens."

 

 

 

Well, no, that's not really my point. I'm only going off posts I've seen recently and hearing people talk in TS about it.

 

I always was told not to slot anything that I didn't have the proper training for, unless it was in the middle of the night and there was only like 10 people on at the time. There were a few times that I was able to slot something I didn't have tags for and performed well, but that's besides the point.

 

If the quality is going to get better, there has to be some enforcement on these aspects.

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Well, no, that's not really my point. I'm only going off posts I've seen recently and hearing people talk in TS about it.

 

I always was told not to slot anything that I didn't have the proper training for, unless it was in the middle of the night and there was only like 10 people on at the time. There were a few times that I was able to slot something I didn't have tags for and performed well, but that's besides the point.

 

If the quality is going to get better, there has to be some enforcement on these aspects.

 

Well my point is that there is already a barrier to entry (auth) and under 2.1 of the game server SOP you are expected to be competent in whatever role you slot. If you feel so strongly about barrier to entry and declining gameplay on the server then why don't you ban people who break this SOP, instead of punishing people by forcing them to sit through a boring 2 hour course, that is probably never offered anyway. I know many people in the community that can slot assets and generally will perform to an acceptable level, sure it's annoying when you have to teach someone something on the fly but forcing people to undergo mandatory courses before they can slot an RPG gunner or something is insane and akin to closed milsim communities. If I wanted that I'd go there, or join the actual military.

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Back in the day "do you know what you're doing with that" was a question oft asked if people didn't know who you were, and I'm sure plenty of others can attest to that. @Lunchy, he can't ban people because he isn't a reg.

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Back in the day "do you know what you're doing with that" was a question oft asked if people didn't know who you were, and I'm sure plenty of others can attest to that. @Lunchy, he can't ban people because he isn't a reg.

 

I know that, believe it or not I actually played here too Jak. I don't really know what the point of your statement is, if you want to ask that to people sure go ahead but at the moment its LITERALLY an SOP that you have to be competent in the asset you wish to slot.

 

Also anyone can put up a ban thread, banning people for breaking the rules is not something only the privileged few of the regular club can afford. If you guys really feel so strongly about the standard of play on the server why don't you actually do your job as a regular and enforce the SOP and uphold the standard instead of coming to the forums complaining saying that the fault lies with others, or is being a regular just a status symbol?

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Isn't there a thread like this every year?

 

We never forced people to qualify for assets, just look at that milkshake guy (or whatever his name was) crashing all the copters on the persistent mission we did a few years back. It still took him ages to get banned, even then most of what he was banned for was being an ass not crashing all the assets.

 

IMO the audience of ARMA changed. The game play quality used to be upheld by virtue of the larger proportion of people knowing what they were doing; the people who didn't but were interested would learn by osmosis, and the people who weren't interested would play a few games and leave. You can't escape the fact that as an audience widens less people will know what they're doing, and aside from becoming a closed community and aggressively vetting new entrants (which, for the record, I think is a terrible idea) I don't think you'll ever recapture the kind of gameplay UO used to have when it was smaller.

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 You can't escape the fact that as an audience widens less people will know what they're doing, and aside from becoming a closed community and aggressively vetting new entrants (which, for the record, I think is a terrible idea) I don't think you'll ever recapture the kind of gameplay UO used to have when it was smaller.

You can say this sure, but we have less players than ever. It doesn't quite add up. The problem is members of the community becoming less dedicated, not new players performing poorly.

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That's kind of my point, over time the community becomes less dedicated as older players drop off and the new blood to replace them just doesn't quite know what they're doing. 

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I think a big part of why many people have left UO other than game issues and real world responsibilities is that UO is just plain toxic to new people and outsiders. From my experience of bringing new people to the server who have only had vanilla Arma 3 experience and running through the famil course with them, and then joining the primary, there's just a huge cloud of toxicity that occurs because of the general attitude of certain players within the community. Certain players on the primary can just be straight up assholes to new people, or even come off as one, leaving a shitty taste that they might not want to come back to. The biggest issue is that perception is everything with new people, and if we seem like assholes, we probably are assholes. 

 

Another thing is that for new people trying to join the server, there are multiple cliques within the barracks channels that seem very hard to break into, with many people being discouraging to newcomers and even members of the community who dare enter the channels. These cliques tend to extend further into the primary server, creating tensions between members of the clique during slotting/in-game that come off as petty and childish. These types of petty arguments give off a bad vibe to newcomers.

 

I honestly think that the main issue this community has is that it's populated by vocal and loud assholes.

Edited by Cake

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... I honestly think that the main issue this community has is that it's populated by vocal and loud assholes.

 

 

Reminds me of a person sunbathing and complaining about how crowded the beach is. 

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Look back in time at the people allowed to become regulars. At all the times when we wanted to have people banned for the very actions stated in this thread and the virtual SJWs fought us on it. Look back at the complaining of WACs, and proper briefings. Look back at your own decisions (not you King, general statement) and you will see why you have the community you currently have. You want tactical, mature and organized play where people care... follow UOAFs example. 

Edited by Boondocksaint

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I dunno Boon. Banning people for minor infractions would alienate people from the community more than the ban mindset does already. Admittedly I haven't played recently due to prime time being at midnight which is a bit late for me now, but I can tell you that new people that decide to stick around for a while have always looked at playing at UO as stepping through a minefield of 'how do I not get banned?', especially for squad leadership. I'm not advocating for loosening of banning people for gameplay infractions but increasing stringency wouldn't help either. Also define what you mean by a proper brief. If you mean audiobooking the brief the missionmaker provided because of a desire to adhere to the 5 paragraph format they use in the military then I disagree. All you need to say is mission execution, and 2 minutes on medical and comms brief max, then get a backbrief if you wish. This is possible within 5-10 minutes for any mission, squad to company, leaving 5 minutes for analysing the mission maker brief for yourself.

Edited by KmO

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I'd subscribe to a milder version of what Cake (and some other) wrote, due to the fact that no one actually have ever been "rude" to me, but there's a lot of high expectations and no so much tools of growth offered, and this leads to a circlejerk of demands and frustration that leads to general unhappiness.

 

The game itself is old, there's people that easily have played it 10 years straight, and one can be worn down and become grumpy like one of those old couples that pick fights all the time but cant split because of habit. The game itself is, well, a game, and it boils down to the same stuff day in and day out: clear the area defend the area, take the town defend the town, attack the convoy defend the convoy, kill the HVT defend the VIP etc.

 

I would also like to point out that the seeder missions (which should be unvaluable tools for keeping the server going) as they are built ask to be misplayed and are everything that UO should not be: i restarted playing by a few weeks after a mix of bugs and burnout and i enjoyed playing Escape quick missions on random vanilla servers: the least amount of strategic fuss and the top of tactical professionalism and coordination, which is much more i can ask from a pick up group of randoms and so much more than i ever got from seeder missions on primary. I wish we would use that as seeder TBH, i played a few times alone hoping someone would join but a nameless dude alone on Primary isnt much of a lure.

 

 

Lastly i'd also like to address the discomfort i have relating to the forum. I use the web since 1994, and i am a forum user, and admin'ed a few myself. This said, I dont understand most of warnings handed out, I really fail to understand the rationale behind them, i also took a few myself and besides castrating some good helpful and meaningful discussions (as far as i was concerned at least) i failed to see any other function (whereas on the discord everything goes). Which is somewhat a good representation of the issues i have with UO: someone tries to do something (in good faith) and a thunderous voice comes down and says "it is wrong you are wrong your efforts are not required, nor necessary, nor, all in all, really welcomed".

 

 

Generally speaking, what i see in UO is a high level expectations, too much bureaucracy, lots of dont's, not really many can's, great attention on picking other people's failings but not much in terms of helping people improving. I dont see how lashing out at the new guys can help: new guys are required for any community, if they are a problem then the fault is of those whom are supposed to handle them, you cannot really expect newbies showing up and already knowing the things you want them to do, as if it were some kind of gospel taught in sunday schools around the world (and famil courses dont really fit the bill). Leadership courses could improve things at least in game, if the general attitude in accepting mistakes improves.

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IMO the audience of ARMA changed. The game play quality used to be upheld by virtue of the larger proportion of people knowing what they were doing; the people who didn't but were interested would learn by osmosis, and the people who weren't interested would play a few games and leave. You can't escape the fact that as an audience widens less people will know what they're doing, and aside from becoming a closed community and aggressively vetting new entrants (which, for the record, I think is a terrible idea) I don't think you'll ever recapture the kind of gameplay UO used to have when it was smaller.

 

I think at some point we expanded quicker than the osmosis could keep up. Whilst we never had formal requirements, there was more of general expectation that you would have a 'track record' to slot key assets in prime time and there were usually more than enough people around with the relevant skills to do that. As the community expanded, those with the relevant skills found themselves teaching more and more, rather than purely 'playing' which is hard work over a sustained period.

 

Artillery is an obvious example, we used to plenty of people who could man a battery efficiently and it was not unusually for most people down to SL level to be proficient in calls for fires. Now that seems to be much more rare. 

 

I do think there is a lot of middle ground between becoming a closed community and letting everyone do everything from day 1 on the server and that doesn't have to involve long or complex vetting courses (in that sense I think the binary choices referred to by Kingslayer are something of a false dichotomy). I think that ship has largely sailed though and in that sense I agree with Verox - its not really going to be possible to turn the clock back from where we are now.

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Motivation and commitment slowed by the regulars. Regulars stopped leading, and the gameplay got affected. 

Until the Regulars begins to actively play and the lead the community, this will not change. 

The community was driven by enthusiasm, but this began to decline when the regulars stopped showing this. 

To turn the boat around: start doing events, where sustained gameplay can be experienced. Stop bitching and focus on the positive stuff. Highlight the great things, encourage growth in compentency, and get UOTC restarted. 

Or: focus on becomming a small, tight knit community, with a small number of members, that are highly skilled, and with great requirement on individual level. Accept lower amount of players and smaller influx.

 

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Reminds me of a person sunbathing and complaining about how crowded the beach is. 

I mean, you're not wrong.

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I dunno Boon. Banning people for minor infractions would alienate people from the community more than the ban mindset does already. Admittedly I haven't played recently due to prime time being at midnight which is a bit late for me now, but I can tell you that new people that decide to stick around for a while have always looked at playing at UO as stepping through a minefield of 'how do I not get banned?', especially for squad leadership. I'm not advocating for loosening of banning people for gameplay infractions but increasing stringency wouldn't help either. Also define what you mean by a proper brief. If you mean audiobooking the brief the missionmaker provided because of a desire to adhere to the 5 paragraph format they use in the military then I disagree. All you need to say is mission execution, and 2 minutes on medical and comms brief max, then get a backbrief if you wish. This is possible within 5-10 minutes for any mission, squad to company, leaving 5 minutes for analysing the mission maker brief for yourself.

You have been in missions I have lead and know I don't subscribe to the "rat loveresq" briefing, but nor do I not give detailed commanders intent. You can also review every ban I have ever filed as an officer. I am not saying like the bans for mistakes or accidents. But we have polls to remove the ban for people like meinke. The most disruptive player we have ever had. That was put up by regulars...there were people who were contrarian just to be dissidents. So the founders, most of them, dropped regular status and moved on to places they could enjoy their free time. At the end of the day we were all volunteers.

Edited by Boondocksaint

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You know I look back on the old barrier to entry threads and do wonder what UO would be like if the Krause/Godhand/Thawk/Deathstrike thousand year autism Reich had been implemented.

Not sure if i necroed this thread or this thread necroed me, but this line is my new favorite thing :biggrin:

 

I just don't get this, a group of players who gave up a shit tonne of time, dedicated countless hours to this community and we're labled an "autism reich"....fuck us right? giving a shit about UO....and then people years later complain about the level of play.

 

The BTE we were looking at years ago was a super light, low intensity and light on manpower operation. I've seen in other communities that operate these really low op BTEs work fairly well at keeping a base level of mature play. All it involves is 5 minutes of face time plus the normal Famils we run, that is all. But we didn't vote it in here, that's grand, your choice but don't go slinging shit at the people who were just trying an idea to maybe fix a problem which has obviously developed into something more now. Fuck me like, coming up with a possible plan to fix things and putting it to vote.....what assholes.

 

Anyway, uncalled for personal insults aside, I've said it before and I'll say it again. If people want me to run leadership courses that will last around 45 minutes, I'll do it, I'll talk about how to give orders, basic section and platoon tactics, how to maintain C2...etc. 

 

I have only ever, and still do, have UOs best interests at heart. What an asshole, right? Thanks again King.

 

That includes JB and Godhand too. Danish Assholes.

Edited by Thawk

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Motivation and commitment slowed by the regulars. Regulars stopped leading, and the gameplay got affected.

Huh, wonder why.

I just don't get this, a group of players who gave up a shit tonne of time, dedicated countless hours to this community and we're labled an "autism reich"....fuck us right? giving a shit about UO....and then people years later complain about the level of play.

Oh.

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I just don't get this, a group of players who gave up a shit tonne of time, dedicated countless hours to this community and we're labled an "autism reich"....fuck us right? giving a shit about UO....and then people years later complain about the level of play.

 

The BTE we were looking at years ago was a super light, low intensity and light on manpower operation. I've seen in other communities that operate these really low op BTEs work fairly well at keeping a base level of mature play. All it involves is 5 minutes of face time plus the normal Famils we run, that is all. But we didn't vote it in here, that's grand, your choice but don't go slinging shit at the people who were just trying an idea to maybe fix a problem which has obviously developed into something more now. Fuck me like, coming up with a possible plan to fix things and putting it to vote.....what assholes.

 

Anyway, uncalled for personal insults aside, I've said it before and I'll say it again. If people want me to run leadership courses that will last around 45 minutes, I'll do it, I'll talk about how to give orders, basic section and platoon tactics, how to maintain C2...etc. 

 

I have only ever, and still do, have UOs best interests at heart. What an asshole, right? Thanks again King.

 

That includes JB and Godhand too. Danish Assholes.

Aside, id be interested in this. Will put in a request thru the UOTC

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Yo Thawk I'm pretty sure you just got baited. 

This seems like an excuse for a good response to a stupid thing to say by Kingslayer. A cop out.

Your post is even more silly with Kingslayer having been a staunch opponent to the BTE when it was discussed and voted on, for him now to be making this thread.

 

Thawk, you Irish prick. I'll run you over with my tank.

 

 

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Most people have moved on with their lives, its not reasonable to expect the same core of 20-something to play the same video game intensively for 6 years.

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