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Limey

Falkland Islands are British! Facts!

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Limey, please listen. In the nicest possible terms, you are not God. Nor are you an expert on the Falklands Situation. You have stated a series of opinions (that I challenged most/all yet you ignored as most internet trolls do) and when it is pointed out, you get ultra defensive and attack the person who has disagreed with you. This is the 3rd such thread you have begun that has had no bearing on anything at all and merely there for you to get your troll rocks off. Please refrain from doing this.

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Limey, please listen. In the nicest possible terms, you are not God. Nor are you an expert on the Falklands Situation. You have stated a series of opinions (that I challenged most/all yet you ignored as most internet trolls do) and when it is pointed out, you get ultra defensive and attack the person who has disagreed with you. This is the 3rd such thread you have begun that has had no bearing on anything at all and merely there for you to get your troll rocks off. Please refrain from doing this.

I missed your comment with an influx of comments, I''m sorry, and will reply now I've been alerted to it. No need for insults about arrogance or accusations on trolling!

 

JB is right, if you want a discussion, pose a question don't just say 'these are the facts'. I will respond to your 'facts' step by step. Personally I believe the Referendum showed the Falklands Islanders wishes and that is the be all and end all.

 

1 - True there were no inhabitants prior to the discovery however this isn't relevant to the cause for ownership. Neither side gains anything from it having had a previous culture based there.

 

2 - This is true to some extent, however most countries only have sovereignty now over countries close to or part of the large whole. Even the commonwealth has been watered down and the United Kingdom is not so much as seen by all the referendums put in place by Wales, Scotland etc. Being close to a country does not give ownership, however being this far away from somewhere is grounds for non-ownership.

 

3 - The state of Argentina may not have existed, however the claims were made by the Spanish settlers in Argentina and further to this many different countries have laid claim including England and France.

 

4 - This to me is important if you want to maintain the democracy, you vote on what the Islanders wish. This is ignored by Argentina as they see these people as merely English invaders and thus are both biased and just another representation of the UK governments underhanded tactics.

 

5 - Argentina are not acting colonial, they are acting as any troubled country might, if your economy is falling apart, you have no support of your people, then give them something that they want. They want the Islands returned and if you are vowing to return Las Malvinas then you will get votes and popularity from your people. Good politics.

 

6 - Argentina invaded Falklands with cause, to them they own it. The same reason we sent a task force to re-capture it, is that we own it. Both have claims, not fabricated but actual claims. It is just near impossible to decipher when such claims were made, which supercede which etc.

 

7 - Any country that has troubles with human rights will 'throw stones' if you are too busy defending yourself you will not be attacking them. That is the theory anyway.

 

8 - British taxpayers have spent a lot of money on a lot of things, at the end of the day, how much do we really know where the money goes? Also the Falklands has less than 3000 people, not really the worlds biggest democracy and I believe it is wrong to try and see we have created a political system there.

 

9 - Then send them back to Britain, that is the argument of the Argentinians. They aren't natives, they are just vagrants living on their land. Their is also a wide range of ethnicities present with immigrations being a major part of what keeps the Island from being in population decline.

 

10 - The UN has been rather toothless on the whole issue, the UN is not this great all powerful force for world peace. Do not drink the cool aid, it is not good for you. They are largely happy to just let the UK and Argentina squabble over this tiny patch of nothingness. They have also spoken on behalf of both sides.

 

 

 

Hope that addresses some of your points, and though I may be incorrect in some of this, what I do know is right, is that you stated a lot of 'opinions' rather than facts.

1 - You don't think original settlement is a valid premise of being ARTIFICIALLY indigenous?

2 - We have no dispute here, I believe, and I think this was most true before the invention of wireless communication: difficulties with ordering/governing from afar due to communication difficulties. There is also the issue of cultural separation due to isolation from the mainland and a feeling of being 'distant' in being as well to warrant a tangible separation. Nevertheless, I'd argue if the right liaison is made as communication, as is the case with the Falklands, and there is a sincere bond with the linked regime for positive reasons (e.g. trade, culture, language, defense), there is no issue.

3 - This is indeed true, but as I mentioned with the European conflict, they were defeated and this normally decided ownership during the colonial era, as was the case with multiple conflicts from the 17th to 19th century (i.e. Cape Colony being annexed from the Dutch, consequently becoming'British').

4 - The fact is, nevertheless, they're not invaders and their proposition is highly flawed....

5 - No matter the underpinnings, I do believe they're acting colonial when they want to steal territory from the artificially indigenous (elucidated this term above) population and establish a DISPARATE regime to the current one.

6 - Maybe you're being deceived by propaganda which they're relying on in their Machiavellian politics? Their cause isn't reasonable and that's the issue with how I'm defining the legitimacy to it! Here's a nice source: http://www.falklandshistory.org/false-falklands-history.pdf They are purporting falsehoods to advance a rather immoral conquest and this lacks a legitimate, moral cause.

7 - Elaborate? I think this could be interesting on the psychology of nations.

8 - It's for the future and how industries/real estate/resources will expand to be inevitably profitable.

9 - No matter the immigration, they're expected to integrate into what's already there.

10 - Very true, very true, but as long as superpowers reinforce resolutions, it won't fail as the League of Nations did. :)

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That's incorrect. Article 5 explicitly applies to overseas territories in North Africa and in the North Atlantic. However, NATO was founded with one clear goal - opposing Soviet Russian expansion in Western Europe. It is not a wholesale alliance, and it could never be extended to cover more than that. The only two countries which could really benefit from such a move are the US and UK, and the US doesn't want any part in defense of the Falklands, so it won't happen.

Where does Article 5 pertain to overseas territories? Was there a revision or appendix? From reading it before, I only remember this from the official document:

 

"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security ."

 

 

It does receive clarification in Article 6 on overseas territories, actually:

 

"For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

  • on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France (2), on the territory of or on the Islands under the juris"diction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;"

http://en.wikipedia....ropic_of_Cancer

 

Falklands is below the Topic of Cancer which it says is the deciding point for intervention, I think?

Edited by Limey

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1 - You don't think original settlement is a valid premise of being ARTIFICIALLY indigenous?

 

Well if that is the case, it belongs to the French. The French made the first colony on the Falklands then England made one. Spain acquired Frances convoy and kept it whilst attacking and taking over the English colony. At that point all of the Falklands belongs to Spain. Spain allows the English to return to avoid full scale war.

 

Just read anything, it is not a cut and dry issue.

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Well if that is the case, it belongs to the French. The French made the first colony on the Falklands then England made one. Spain acquired Frances convoy and kept it whilst attacking and taking over the English colony. At that point all of the Falklands belongs to Spain. Spain allows the English to return to avoid full scale war.

 

Just read anything, it is not a cut and dry issue.

As I explained, the colonial wars involved territories constantly changing ownership between European powers and the outcome of these interconnected conflicts, British with Falklands, decided who the true proprietor will be. This is my logic, simple, along with the fact they were the first to develop for a long while, established a settlement firmly at the location, creating a lineage there, and ceasing any interdependence to be fully autonomous.

Edited by Limey

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The point at which the English took control of the Falklands, we forced the Argentinians to leave. Hence their arguement that it belongs to them and we just took it by force.

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The point at which the English took control of the Falklands, we forced the Argentinians to leave. Hence their arguement that it belongs to them and we just took it by force.

Did you not read the article I shared which has much evidence to support it? Check Point#3 at http://www.falklands...ds-history.pdf. Please don't try to educate me when not caring to fully research veracious sources shared DIRECTLY. Expressing sovereignty is also vital for claiming territory and frankly, Spain would have more credence over the Falklands opposed to Argentina.

Edited by Limey

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Who cares, the last of the British empire and they are hanging on to it like its worth something. It is really pathetic.

 

Maybe you guys should focus on domestic issues like the rise of conservatism that has put you in the mess you are in now and not on a shitty little rock with a bunch of inbred people who worship a monarchy with no power.

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Who the fuck cares about a piece of rock in the middle of nowhere claimed by a country nowhere near it. Find something worth having a discussion about, like WTF happened to the your Empire and how it feels to have a greasy grip on being a world power. We in the U.S. are getting that feeling so perhaps you can give us tips on how to deal with living with that.

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Who the fuck cares about a piece of rock in the middle of nowhere claimed by a country nowhere near it. Find something worth having a discussion about, like WTF happened to the your Empire and how it feels to have a greasy grip on being a world power. We in the U.S. are getting that feeling so perhaps you can give us tips on how to deal with living with that.

 

That's easy. Just bomb the living crap of a country in the middle east and you'll do fine! :smile:

Edited by Appe96

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Who cares, the last of the British empire and they are hanging on to it like its worth something. It is really pathetic.

 

Maybe you guys should focus on domestic issues like the rise of conservatism that has put you in the mess you are in now and not on a shitty little rock with a bunch of inbred people who worship a monarchy with no power.

 

... Right.

 

I'd describe trying to "hang on to the British empire" as trying to maintain control of a place whose population do not want to be under our control. This is not the case with the Falkland Islands. The way I see it is that you're saying that it's pathetic that we're protecting our citizens. Well, okay; if you say so.

 

It's a pretty uneducated point of view to be honest.

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Who the fuck cares about a piece of rock in the middle of nowhere claimed by a country nowhere near it. Find something worth having a discussion about, like WTF happened to the your Empire and how it feels to have a greasy grip on being a world power. We in the U.S. are getting that feeling so perhaps you can give us tips on how to deal with living with that.

Would the USA like to lose Alaska, land of the trees and bears, to Russia since they originally owned it? It's the fact another nation would disrespect our nation, impede a current sovereignty belonging to us, and be ASSAULTED physically with an invasion. Is that fine? No, it's not in principle and neither is submission.

Edited by Limey

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Why are you brits so defensive over the Falklands?everytime someone throws a comment regarding it we get someone sperging over it.

 

Because British men have died in defending the land and the people. Just like Americans would be antsy if we mocked you over how you feel about Hawaiian Islands/Pearl Harbor (or insert another similar example). Everyone gets emotional over these sorts of things.

Edited by Sickofguessing

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Would the USA like to lose Alaska, land of the trees and bears, to Russia since they originally owned it? It's the fact another nation would disrespect our nation, impede a current sovereignty belonging to us, and be ASSAULTED physically with an invasion. Is that fine? No, it's not in principle and neither is submission.

 

That is an entirely unequivocal statement. Alaska was purchased from the Russians and the paperwork exists to show that. The Falklands have had claim laid to it by many different nations. As far as anyone is concerned its still up for grabs.

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Because British men have died in defending the land and the people. Just like Americans would be antsy if we mocked you over how you feel about Hawaiian Islands/Pearl Harbor (or insert another similar example). Everyone gets emotional over these sorts of things.

 

This is the internet, grow a thicker skin.

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That is an entirely unequivocal statement. Alaska was purchased from the Russians and the paperwork exists to show that. The Falklands have had claim laid to it by many different nations. As far as anyone is concerned its still up for grabs.

The fact is that we, Britain, feel we completely own it and we have history as the witness along with the paperwork documenting it as our sovereignty since infrastructure begun to take off. Spain and France may dispute us, as I've admitted, but I don't think they contest to it being ours realistically. The issue in my analogy is a land of ours being invaded, feelings absolute it is rightfully ours, them considering themselves 'British Subjects', and being legally certain we have sovereignty over it.

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Well, basically, stealing land and countries from other peoples just because they can has been the modus operandi for England, Great Britain and the UK since time immemorial, so....honestly it's like karma or something.

Oh and we actually bought Alaska from the Russians.

Seward's Folly and all that.

Bit different. Lot different actually. Same way we bought Lousiana and most of the West, and bought Florida. Didn't buy Texas though, kinda put the old kibosh on the Mexicans with that one, but honestly, wasn't even us, it was that poncy git Sam Houston.

But hey, having your nation disrespected, having a sovereignty imposed on you, being physically assaulted.......

I would think Great Britain would know a lot of people with that problem.

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Is this topic necessary? I mean, I don't see many argentinians here to defend their side nor that it would solve the conflict.

 

 

BTW, Project Reality has a great mini mod about it!

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2 - Ownership isn't based on proximity, evinced with Europe as very divided, and any changes were due to territorial wars or independence (i.e. sector of Sweden becoming Finland).

 

WRONG! Finland became independent from Soviet Russia right after the Soviet revolution against Russia. Otherwise I'm with you here.

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WRONG! Finland became independent from Soviet Russia right after the Soviet revolution against Russia. Otherwise I'm with you here.

My bad! :)

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Yea lets talk about the Senkaku island issue. Be way more bad ass to see China and Japan duke it out then a bunch of crappy old British and Argentinian warships and airplanes.

 

Get with the times Britain, your island dispute is so 1980s, just like the rest of your culture. I bet Limey has a poster of Thatcher on his wall and furiously entices himself while looking at it.

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Yea lets talk about the Senkaku island issue. Be way more bad ass to see China and Japan duke it out then a bunch of crappy old British and Argentinian warships and airplanes.

 

Get with the times Britain, your island dispute is so 1980s, just like the rest of your culture. I bet Limey has a poster of Thatcher on his wall and furiously entices himself while looking at it.

Morrissey, actually, and I sing "Margaret on the Guillotine" to the shrine. :)

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I bet Limey has a poster of Thatcher on his wall and furiously entices himself while looking at it.

 

This is perhaps the most disturbing image the world has ever seen.

 

We should set up a helpline for those affected.

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