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[DISCUSSION] STHUD

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Well, I just have them off entirely through my own options. I don't get the audio or the messages for things like that.

 

Which is why it didn't cross my mind.

 

Are you talking about settings like no HUD and no VOICE that can be disabled in ACE settings?

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I have the radio-text and radio-voices disabled... and I always thought that's by default with ACE/ACRE. These texts and voices are the most annoying and immersion-breaking thing I have ever experienced (together with the TeamSpeak-sounds!). 

The HUD instantly shows you when someone died by removing his name and symbol from the all-knowing HUD. That's a fact. I don't like that. Period.

 

I really don't see a point in why we have to revive this thread. If people want it to be removed they should make a poll and let the regulars vote... that would be the right place for a discussion. I still think that all major concerns about this addon have been raised, and basically just people pointing fingers at the addon and saying "Hey, that feature sucks and is unrealistic" and other people pointing at it and saying "Hey but I like the feature and it simulates real human senses ingame"!

 

Fact is that even in real-life you cannot look behind you or through walls. Fact is that in real-life you do not have "range circles" who indicate you how far someone is away from you. Fact is that in real-life you do not have the names of your squad-mates magically floating in your face all the time and disappearing when someone dies. 

 

While I understand the need for a basic (!) addon that simulates peripheral vision I still think that STHud has too much unnecessary and unrealistic features which are NOT forced off by the server at the moment.

An alternative would be to have a little "HUD" on the bottom screen, displaying all units around you, without symbolizing their role, distance, the direction they are looking and without a compass. Just simple dots to simulate your peripheral vision and tell you "Hey, there is someone on the right side of you".

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Are you talking about settings like no HUD and no VOICE that can be disabled in ACE settings?

No, in the Audio and Game settings you turn VON and Radio sounds to nil, and in the Game Options you turn off Subtitles and that other one, I think its Radio Messages.

No more green text.

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Should it not be possible to alter the way people are remove from the group when they die? In videos from Shacktac members names and dots does not always disappear as soon as someone dies; the names stay until the group leader initiate a command to refresh the hud.

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Should it not be possible to alter the way people are remove from the group when they die? In videos from Shacktac members names and dots does not always disappear as soon as someone dies; the names stay until the group leader initiate a command to refresh the hud.

On the higher difficulty levels, that's how the SThud works atm.

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Ok, because that is my only concern about SThud.
Not being certain if someone is dead or not makes your choices a lot more interesting. Do you check him to see if you can still save your buddy, or do you try to look after yourself.
Also the fact that silent takedowns in tvts are made harder when everyone in the squad are notified of the death of their comrade even though they might not even be present. 

So, do we just need to put all the missions on high difficulties and this will be resolved?

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This is how it works, both for AI and players.

When someone dies, there are 3 ways for him to get booted from the group:

  1. First one is when another group member realizes that he is dead. This is influenced by units spotTime sub-skill.
  2. Second one is if the entire group has perished. The group will continue to exist but is empty.
  3. Third one is forced removal from group by script WICH IS QUITE COMMMON FOR UO. The most well known and used spec script, GDT mod spectator, uses this method (unless modified).

I have modified GDT with a OFP style death scene (no quotes, sorry) that last 40 seconds in order to stall group removal.

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  1. Third one is forced removal from group by script WICH IS QUITE COMMMON FOR UO. The most well known and used spec script, GDT mod spectator, uses this method (unless modified).

 

 

Could we look into gettting a modified GDT that does not force group removal?

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Remove

 

[player] join grpNull;
from your prep.sqf or from wherever you're calling your gdtmod_spectator.sqf

 

That should keep you in the group when you die.

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So, is this something we can all agree on? That not instantly removing dead people from the group will improve the SThud?

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If it do mess up the script you could ask Dslyecxi how they did it, seeing how ST apperently do have a spectator script that doesn't remove you from the group.

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Well I think testing to make sure it doesn't mess up the script first might be a good idea!

If it do mess up the script you could ask Dslyecxi how they did it, seeing how ST apperently do have a spectator script that doesn't remove you from the group.

It works.

 

You just need to compensate if you are counting players in a group to make sure they are outside\inside (depends on what you're doing) of specpen. Note, this only applies to counting players in a group.

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sthud is a must for public sessions. yeah, it may be considered as "cheat" or anything but all it was aimed for and all it does is saving alot of time for organization.

and time is the most precious resource especially when you have around 2-3 hours to play staying up up on night.

 

it makes stuff quick and simple for squad leader and all squad. i don't see anything terribad with it. it enhance the team play, what else you should care about?..

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sthud is a must for public sessions. yeah, it may be considered as "cheat" or anything but all it was aimed for and all it does is saving alot of time for organization.

and time is the most precious resource especially when you have around 2-3 hours to play staying up up on night.

 

it makes stuff quick and simple for squad leader and all squad. i don't see anything terribad with it. it enhance the team play, what else you should care about?..

 

Yes, everyone knows that, and we already raised alot of points on why we don't like it or think it is a "cheat". While we all understand that it tries to simulate the "peripheral vision" and the training we would have in real-life, it is still unrealistic to be able to see whos 40meters behind you, whos standing behind that wall or who died and disappeared from the magical HUD. It is also not realistic to have rangecircles, a compass, the names of all your squadmates, their role and the direction they are looking at magically floating in your face all the time. For this stuff you have a compass, a brain and the ALT-key to turn your head and look around. ArmA and UO are not about making things as easy and fast as possible. It's about teamwork, atmosphere and realism. We could also use aiming-helps (or aimbots lol) like consoles do, because maybe we would have hit that guy behind the tree in real-life with all the training!

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For the love of god, please, just let this thread die.

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What Verox said, read through the thread and I guarantee you will see the answer to your comment or question.

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Complaining about a thread that won't die by making posts on it seems rather contradicting.

 

Making a post about a post that the thread won't die is even worse.

 

The bottom line is that you can't really blame people for posting on a thread that happens to be "open" or available for discussion. With that said, go ask a FM to lock it up if it really bothers you.

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(In reply to o'neill)

In all of my short years of being on this planet, I have never heard of someone so ignorant that they can't think about what they are posting.

"it is still unrealistic to see who is 40meters behind you." - within this wording, you make us seem blind and unable to look around.

"who's standing behind that wall or who died and disappeared from the magical HUD" - The point of seeing "behind the wall" is that, in most cases, you know where most of your team is and they always tell their position. the who died part doesn't make since considering that, unless they get shot in the brain, they will scream in pain before dying and you would hear a thud. STH tries to simulate that since ArmA doesn't.

"It is also not realistic to have rangecircles, a compass, the names of all your squad mates, their role and the direction they are looking at magically floating in your face all the time" - In real life, you DO know the names of your squad, the roles they do, and have the definition that allows us to estimate distances. In UO however, the squad changes all the time, the roles never stay the same, and the way A2 renders makes guessing hard on some machines. Not going to be making comments on the compass part.

"We could also use aiming-helps (or aimbots lol) like consoles do, because maybe we would have hit that guy behind the tree in real-life with all the training!" Well, I'm not saying your wrong but the game sometimes frequently doesn't simulate ballistics.

 

For my two cents. Shack Tac Hud is a great tool for those who are new to the community with little to no experience on formations, spacing, and need the help There is one option that you can do if you don't like STH. hit Alt+Shift+H to disable the hud. Sure it will be annoying, but at least you don't have to look at the "cheat".

 

quote isn't working for me fyi.

Edited by Nathan423

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 There is one option that you can do if you don't like STH. hit Alt+Shift+H to disable the hud. Sure it will be annoying, but at least you don't have to look at the "cheat".

 

Always felt that this suggestion has never been thought through and ignores the issues that people are trying to raise.

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(In reply to o'neill)

In all of my short years of being on this planet, I have never heard of someone so ignorant that they can't think about what they are posting.

"it is still unrealistic to see who is 40meters behind you." - within this wording, you make us seem blind and unable to look around.

"who's standing behind that wall or who died and disappeared from the magical HUD" - The point of seeing "behind the wall" is that, in most cases, you know where most of your team is and they always tell their position. the who died part doesn't make since considering that, unless they get shot in the brain, they will scream in pain before dying and you would hear a thud. STH tries to simulate that since ArmA doesn't.

"It is also not realistic to have rangecircles, a compass, the names of all your squad mates, their role and the direction they are looking at magically floating in your face all the time" - In real life, you DO know the names of your squad, the roles they do, and have the definition that allows us to estimate distances. In UO however, the squad changes all the time, the roles never stay the same, and the way A2 renders makes guessing hard on some machines. Not going to be making comments on the compass part.

"We could also use aiming-helps (or aimbots lol) like consoles do, because maybe we would have hit that guy behind the tree in real-life with all the training!" Well, I'm not saying your wrong but the game sometimes frequently doesn't simulate ballistics.

 

1.) That is EXACTLY my point! In ArmA you have the possibility to easility turn your head around and actually look what is going on around you. Something you SHOULD be doing anyways. It's a function that you don't have in any other "game". So why do we need an addon for that which "simulates" that in the most unrealistic way I could think of? It is a military simulation!

 

2.) That is EXACTLY my point! In ArmA with ACRE you have the possibility to easily communicate and let people know where you are and what you are doing! Something you SHOULD be doing anyways. It's a function that you don't have in many other "game". So why do we need an addon for that which "simulates" that in the most unrealistic way I could think of? It is a military simulation, jeez!

 

3.) Okay good, if you can't remember a few names of your squadmates over the period of a mission (which goes from 30mins to several hours) and if you are unable to use a notepad to write down the most important names than fine, whatever.

ArmA has a huge and detailed world, you can ALWAYS find something to orient on. That big tower to the north, the bridge in the west, or the line of trees in the south. There is ALWAYS something you can orient on. 

 

4.) Wait, I thought ACE would already simulate wind, ballistics and bullet drop to a certain degree!? I mean, probably not 100% realistic but at least better than in vanilla and better than in most other games.

 

All I am trying to say is that we are playing a military simulation, trying to make it as realistic and immersive as possible. We use complicated radios, weapon systems, a (more or less complex) medical system and whatnot. Why do we have to (do we want to?) make everything easier? I personally want it to be realistic. And to be honest, if you can't press ALT to look around, properly communicate with your teammembers and are unable to read a compass, than you are probably wrong in ArmA. Cause it is a military simulation, and not a simple shooter-game where everything is supposed to be easy.

 

 

EDIT: Disable the HUD on the client side? Yeah awesome idea... as soon as everyone starts moving again without echoing orders or if people refer to you with STHud-circles or STHud colors or STHud whatnot. Great idea!

Edited by O'Neill

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They are pros and cons with current lack of Shacktac:

 

Pros: Communication drastically increased

Situational awareness is better

More buddys bonding

 

Cons:  Getting lost on dismounts (helicopter)

Tighter formations meaning more danger to get mowed down by enemy AR/grenade/AT

Finding teamates (when plan falls apart and bullets start flying, and people get hit

there's tend to be confusion despite communication (thou hardy - as is hard to hear everyone in heat of battle)

 

All above cons that I described can be avoided really easy if FTL is skilled.

 

Meaning that at the beginning everyone knows what we are, TOLD IN GAME who is FTL,

group indications (FTL1 alpha, FTL2 bravo), who is squad leader, and radio channel.

 

Example: Helicopter dismounts:Alpha NE line at dismount, Bravo NW line at dismount.

And person would know when he dismount he will form line at told direction.

 

Tighter formations

Not necessary if echoing is present (and maybe voice set to shout)

 

Finding teamates when plan falls apart.

Again just specify again who is who just like on beginning, you might get JIP,

you might lost some people and have to restructure Fireteam,but if you

tell people who they are, what group, channel and so on, there will be no confusion.

 

And about fighting and loudness of battlefield again Echoing applies here but the important

part being is to know to issue order (and get the echo).This is where FTP (fireteam practical) pick up.

 

I will briefly mention accountability: Every leader should be able to keep eyes on his men, and make

sure they are with him.In the heat of battle buddy teams come in effect as well, if one gets hit, and he goes

down silent,his  buddy can notice that and communicate that.Ofcourse for that to work, buddy teams have

to be assigned on the beginning of the mission.

 

I have learned much more from the last time I posted on this thread:

 

Loss of ShactacHUD + capable FTL = better performance

Loss of ShactacHUD + inexperienced FTL = poor performance

 

So it's really black and white situation, requiring good leadership and if it

have it communication just spike up, incredible.

On the other hand it can perform even worse then on average without

shacktac for inexperienced players and leaders.

Edited by enex

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